[Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:48 am]

We need to have self assured individuals like you to take on the immense pressure of our society and weed out the flaws that the rest of the populace are too weak and scared to speak up and challenge. I was always pulled up by my parents that I being a male should not collect a phanek from the clothes line but despite their mocking I made it a point that that restriction didn't apply to me. But the most important social change required that got left out of the TOP 10 list post below is the need to give our women an equal voice in a relationship. I have been meaning to write about this for some time and I feel this is the right moment to get the maximum attention. With more women growing up independently and with long premarital relationships in cities outside manipur and the pressures and confines of our meitei society, woman now expect, and very rightly so , a more equal standing in the post marital life and not as another creature just a little better off than a maid of the house with the male dominating like the king ! In all nuclear families the girl with all their guile and wiles :) always have their way in a marriage but in a joint family she is subjugated to head covered submissive "mou"'s life.

Not many wives are going to put up with a maid's life anymore and so it is the role of the younger generation males to be a SNAG - '"Sensitive New Age Gentlemen" help out with the cooking and the washing. This SNAG conversion automatically happens in a nuclear family but in the presence of the inlaws, the wife is without a voice and hence very frustrated with her maid's life ! This equality of rights and distribution of chores happens in all western families now and manipuri males too need to shed this 'taliban' view of a woman's role in their marriage ! The obvious question is - Do you have the balls to stand up to any mocking and derogatory remarks by the family members, neighbours and friends for doing a "woman's job" in a marriage ?

I remember my father mocking a neighbour of ours of how he was so "hen pecked" and could never raise his voice on his wife which in western society is called "a loving marriage" ! I guess in manipur a marriage is bringing a "maid" home to relieve your mother of her chores ! The biggest conflict in every marriage in every culture and country comes in the tussle for authority between the wife and the mother over the man and hence this "vile" connotation in the word "in laws". So it is the role of the male to make sure that the wife has an equal voice in the family though in western society it is generally accepted that the mother should have no say in the new married family. As I said in my previous posts, let us not forget that a female is no lesser a human being but just our male dominated society over the years having amazingly projected that to be the case ! It is the same vile subjugation by the colonial british projecting the natives as lesser humans and I hope the males will not be subscribing to this view in this century in their marriage relationship ! And I hope the girls learn to discuss this very important topic with their partners before getting married !

OK girls .. I have fired the first shot .. so make the charge now !! :)

[Sun Feb 3, 2002 2:17 pm]

While we are on this very interesting topic discussing meitei culture, custons, religion and philosophy, I would like to raise the issue of social reforms required in our community. These are some I can think of from my old limited memory and experience. Please let us know the ones you can think of too and we can start some awareness campaign later.

1. Mangba Sengba in the kitchen. I think it was a good way of imposing hygiene on an uneducated populace of the past. A woman having her periods also is no longer unhygenic but I do not ofcourse know the usage and affordability of sanitary napkins in the poorer sections of our community. Does anybody know if we had this practice before Hinduism came ?

2. Cooking meat in the kitchen. I had rebelled when I was a kid and refused to eat fish if chicken and other meat too could not be cooked in the kitchen. I think after the current grandparent generation is gone hopefully this will no longer be an issue.

3. Polygamy. I hope this is dead ...

4. Believe in Maiba and Maibis both as healers and being able to foretell the future. This is controversial as a large part of our lai harouba culture is based on this. You would think that education would give people a more scientific rational mind but my father despite having done his engineering outside still called a maibi to chase away the bad spirits that came in the "guise" of a swarm of bees that set up a hive at our building. He followed her advise of burying eggs under the hive but eventually that did not work and the bees had to be smoked away. Hilarious !! But the scary part is how do we expect our state to develop when we have our supposedly educated leaders of the state believing in such nonsense !!!

5. Potyengba. This was a really good system to help out a family in need when it was affordable. Now with the exploding population and inflation it is getting to be unaffordable for most and brings heavy pressure on poor families. I read that Somorendro ( I think that was his name), the activist who was gunned down, also believed that this practice should be stopped. There should be more of a capping on the amount so that it is affordable to all without causing embarrassment to the poor.

6. Social engagements - If people in the west too had to make the same number of social visits – attending luhongbas, swastis, sorat etc, that we do in manipur, there would be no work done in the offices. Hopefully when some day there is a private sector, the fear of losing their jobs will one day put a curb to a more exceptable level so that people can be productive at work.

These are all I can think of .. so let us know your view.

[Mon Dec 10, 2001 5:49 pm]

"Lack of visitors put Indira Park in the dock" .... The parents also confided that their wards could not enter and play inside the park freely as too many boys and girls were dating inside the park....

Got this from an article on e-pao. Would like to know specially from the more senior members of the group what they feel about this. There has been this big dilemma in our society where we are supposed to find our own mates and yet we do not allow courting to be done in the open !! This prudish attitude has to go. How can we still be eloping in this century !! As parents and elders in the society we have to have the common sense that we are to have a love marriage system, we have to allow our kids to date or else have no contact between the opposite genders and get a marriage arranged by the parents like the indians. Of course dating involves a lot of possible "activities" that most conservative parents would not approve of. But that is something we have to accept as part of a continual change that even the so called "degenerate" society of the west once too tried to block in their previous generations.

It is far better to allow such "activities" than to have kids eloping in their early teens when they can no longer control their urges. Keeping dating open where your kids can bring their girl friend / boy friend home is a much more safer, civilized and better option. I know this is going to take some time for the entire state to accept given our current conservative/prudish mindset but I feel the educated adults of the state should make a start. When you give freedom and trust to a child you get more honesty and responsibility from them in return. We need to have social reforms in keeping with the changing times and so let's have a more open outlook.

G'day all.

[Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:51 am]

Hi All
I recall meeting an unusual couple once - they were from different tribes. Just as I was thinking how enlightened their parents must be to allow it, I was rudely disabused of my idealistic notions. The poor woman was not allowed to speak her dialect to their children or to cook her own cultural delicacies. She ate in the kitchen while the rest of the family ate in the lounge. She had for all purposes become a slave.

I was especially surprised because she was better educated than her husband. I wonder if his talibanism was inspired by that fact and whether she had had any inkling of the domestic tyrant he was to become after marriage.

Even in the west where many women do 40+hours work outside the home, the battle to share domestic chores has not yet been won. But there are plenty of individuals who have marked out their own independent paths.

I know this couple with two boys and the man is the "house-husband". They came to this decision because
a) the wife's income was much higher than the husband's and
b) they felt that the pre-school boys would benefit from being cared for by a parent, especially their dad.

This man has absolutely no issues about being the primary care-giver. In fact he enjoys bragging about how hard he works. Cunningly, he can also devote more time to his hobbies.

While there are dinosaurs who would regard him as a weakling doing"women's work", most people respect him. His boys are very lucky to have a role model like him. They may not be house husbands in the future but they will learn that there is no shame in "women's work", that it IS hard work, and best of all, sharing the load will make them extremely eligible to intelligent women.

There is no point trying to convert those men for whom women are free servants and child-bearers. Those sort of men in the west are often reduced to buying a wife from desperate countries like Russia and the Phillipines because no local woman with half a brain will have them. Funnily enough, it often happens that as soon as the mail-order bride has been in her new country long enough to get citizenship, she gets the hell away from the dirty little tyrant. There are also successful unions but they are few and far in between and depend on how decent the husband turns out to be.

I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince neo-neanderthal men to be equal partners in their relationships. It is the long-suffering women who need support to reject unfair treatment. Perhaps women could insist on formal pre-nuptial agreements/discussion re domestics and refuse to marry if the man doesn't get with the plan. After all, why on earth would you want to marry someone who treats you like dirt even BEFORE you get married? And men, wouldn't it be nice if your wives boast about you just because you occasionally get the washing in or cook dinner while the lady of the house gets a well-deserved break??

Cheers

[Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:56 pm]

Thanks.. XXX for coming up with the topic of giving women an equal voice in a relationship. Though my response is a bit late , I would still like to contribute my views….

An innumerable workshops and seminars have been conducted in the state regarding gender equality with participants from all walks of life both men and women which includes the so called 'literates'. But has there been any positive changes yet? NO, I don't think so . Not at least to the pitiable life of a "mou''

As rightly pointed , she is no less than a "maid" . I would humourously place as.. She is all the domestic appliances put together !…She is a pressure cooker , rice cooker, washing machine, vacuum cleaner and so on in just a human form!! Haha ha !!!

The life of a "mou" starts the very day a woman attains "mou-hood" ! She is expected to to do all the household chores, please her husband and in- laws no matter she is capable of doing it or not.It is OBLIGATORY !! The submissiveness and subservience are the desirable characteristics of a "good mou"! (Here is where the oppression of a woman starts in the form of domestic violence ) A mere whimper of protest from her entails a threat from in-laws and even her husband ! She is not expected to say "no" even when she is not in her proper physical condition . She is not sparred even when bedridden and is labelled as " ATANBI ! THABAKTOUNINGDRANA NAASHANARINE" !!

The condition of a working woman / "mou" is even worse no matter her contribution to the economy of the family. No matter what position she holds in the workplace, society , a "mou" is a "mou" !. She is still expected to carry on the reigns of all the household chores even after a tiring day's work outside Once within the four corners of the wall, she is constantly under vigil and attacked at every minor mistakes she committees.She is subjected to the filthiest , dirtiest verbal abuses and even sometimes heinous physical abuse! Poor "mou" , she still has to endure all the pain and carry on with her duties.

The lonely battered "mou" looks up to her husband , her only "abode of peace" and dear husband , does he understand her? "Yes" if he needs her and "no" when he has his moods and vents out all his anger on her !!She has no one to turn to but resign to her faith!!

Here, I have projected the facts which most married women still face today.Domestic violence is still seen as a private affair of an individual or of the household. It is always hussed up!!

It is high time that we younger generation give a serious thought to this and focus our concern towards women empowerment because I for one, strongly believe that the progress of a society depends on peace both inside and ouside where women have an active part .Development in true sense cannot materialize without empowering women

Most importantly ,I want to address to the people of our generation who have grown up in an atmosphere of equality not to fall or toe the established social norms.It is the testing time especially our male friends. Marriage does not only mean compromise ( completely ) from the female life partners. The commitments , the common ideas , the mutual respect and mutual aspirations should not be burried the moment the vows are taken . The couple ought to stand together for what they believed in and for the REASON why they decide to live together happily ever after…

The extremely rigid role expectation have to be argued and changed by both my male and female friends! World is changing , so should we!

Finally , I appeal to all those women out there to.. WAKE UP ! STAND UP ! SHED AWAY ALL THOSE TEARS.! ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS ! ENJOY YOUR RIGHTS!… YOU DESERVE IT ! .. That's what a REAL WOMAN is all about !

Sorry readers, I am no feminist here. I am just a real woman !

[Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:31 am]

I would say that equality of rights of male and female will take a lot of time, but empowerment of women will take very much lesser time.

We should not only blame the males for the oppression caused to our women. Because it is mainly the society which comprises of both males and females. The change has to start from home as I have always believed, particularly from those *homes*, who are respected and who can stand up, that is the likes of us in this group.

Why should I blame the males and females equally? Most of the time, gossips and wild comments on a *mou* is made by other *mous*, or the sisters of the groom. Am I right? At this time, the groom or the husband is expected to stand up and support his wife. But his sisters won't leave that easily. They will spread the bad words to others and the poor couple will be alienated. This is just an example, that is happening commonly.

First aim of empowering the women from the maid is to distribute the household chores among the members according to their schedules. Nowadays, I know a few who do this. I'm always there when there is good thing that I can do at my level. And I spread the words to my close family relatives. From the age I knew washing, I have never allowed my mother or sister to wash my clothes. Now also I dont have washing machine though I can afford it and I don't allow even my wife to wash. I make it a point that every individual is doing his/her own work as much as possible. My brothers and I have been cooking since childhood days.

I take part 50% or more of the cooking, groceries now also. It is not only me. My elder brother works from morning till night while my iteima is housewife. While she washes for my brother also, my brother takes part in 50% of the cooking since their marriage two years ago. Frankly, I share all the work, floor wiping, dish washing...., what not you count. Sometimes, my guests find it a little odd when I have to wash their dishes. But I try to make them feel easy. This way, the oppression on women can start without much of a problem if the mous' husbands (who could be again your brothers) take the initiative. Right now, only I share the same dishes along with my wife, so no amang-aseng for me. I'm insisting it on my brothers and family.

I support my wife and two iteima's when elderly neighbours scold for not covering their head or keeping their hair spread over the shoulder. My father does not have any problem. So, when it comes out of the household chore to the outer public, we need to be polite and we need to explain why we are not strictly following certain things, after all they are another human like us. Now it slowly changes.

When it comes to equality of rights, there is a problem legally and socially. I have a Tamil Hindu friend, who fell in love with a christian girl. At the proposal level with their parents, the girls side wanted the boy to become a christian if he wants to marry. The boy and his parents didn't have any problem in spite of relative's objection. At this time, I had a small argument with a few close friends, why both the groom and wife cannot practise their own separate beliefs. The reason was simple, the children and the family won't have the predicaments of dual identity and the better choice is to adapt to the environment where they have to live. Very often, women move to the husband's family. So, women better adapt to the husband's beliefs for their own comfortability in existence. If husbands had to live in the wifes home like in Meghalaya, it could be the opposite way. My friend was not a religious person and they got married happily.

In a meitei society, women take the back seat in every public functions. Even in utsavs (feasts) and at home, we say ahalna phamen phamgadabani. Unfortunately, this ahal does not include the elderly women. So, even in shardh and weddings, they take the back seat. When it came to my mother's shardh, I made it clear to my father that my sister takes part in all the rituals and homage that we brothers pay to my mother, no matter whether it is sitting in the centre of the mantap or close to the brahmin. (In fact I didn't want the traditional shradh and phiroy, but as I had mentioned in my old mails, I was not prepared for this since my mother passed away too early). So, we should always insists to the elders that women have the same place as men in such social and public functions.

When it comes to legality, I think Indian law insisted on the father's name rather than mother's name. Single mothers have often faced this problem in India when they put their children to schools. But now it is accepted. But when both the parents are available, we better put father's family name for a better convention. I don't say that it is a better convention. But it is better to follow the same convention as the rest. Otherwise, the sagei and yek problems will come up. It will be like, my child will have a family name different from my elder brother's child and each of them will be different from my fathers. If the rest of the society is not following the matriarchal convention, you can imagine the problems in sagei and yeks. But I still insist that your child can be admitted to schools with mother's name instead of father's name without any problem.

So, except for a few legal and social bottlenecks, women can be empowered and given almost equal rights *iff* you as an individual start making the change from yourself and your family. I have started it, and have you??

[Mon Nov 27, 2000 4:39 am]

This article is on something I believe is very important for anyone ambitious and looking for a career overseas. There are many things considered civilized in our society that is interpreted as weakness by western society. Suppression of assertiveness as being rude and impolite tend to lead to stunting of self belief and confidence - a major drawback in the workplace in western society.

"The landscape of an NRI's inner self By L K Sharma"

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THe previous article seems to have been misinterpreted as a call to take up western values and culture and shed the eastern one as being inferior. WHat was being addressed was not cultural issues but more of the personalities as a result of those culture and what was needed to adapt when working in a western workplace..

Yes many indians are doing well overseas but it is predominantly in technical fields where hard work and brains alone matter. In the management field they are minimally represented because the personality that the indian culture promotes is as suggested in the article, interpreted as a weakness and not being decisive in the western work environment specially in roles entrusted to lead. The few who have succeeded are predominantly second generation or have successfully adapted.

"Indians in America soon learn that the traits of modesty, deference, lack of assertiveness get them nowhere. In fact, normal Indian deference is often misinterpreted by superiors as passivity." But these same personality is interpreted as being polite and civilized within our culture.

"Roland's introductory remarks indicated that the impact of the self-loathing taught to Indians by their colonial masters endures. He said Indian culture and Indians were pervasively denigrated. Indians were often seen as hypocritical, deceptive, passive, dependent, effete, superstitious, lacking in individuality and having only a collective self. " This is a self esteem problem that seems to pervade with most of us. It is not just a genuflection to someone of higher authority but more of an innate registration in our subconscious of the superiority of the white race. That I feel is brought about in our society because we are not brought up believing that we are all equal.

The respect for hierarchy and seniority as I mentioned earlier works well within the culture that understands that but when applied in the western culture it is definitely disadvantageous. This does not mean that we give up on our own culture. We have to be able to adapt. A case in point was the XXXX issue. She was just trying to be vivacious in writing that poem using information of the individuals that were sent out by the persons in previous mails. But by our measure, she was considered too loud, rude and impolite and was kicked out. That kind of personality is something that would be rewarded in the workplace in the western countries where you are appreciated to speak out. I know a lot of indian programmers who are here and fail to get a job because companies feel they would not fit into the company culture even though it is a programming job where you barely interact with customers. It could be labeled discriminatory and I agree to some extent it is but it is a question of "In Rome do as the romans .." The issue we are addressing is not which is a better culture, but the disadvantages a person from an eastern culture faces when working in a western culture. And definitely there will be disadvantages that a person from a western culture would face when working in an eastern culture but that is not what we are addressing here. And neither is it a question of which personality traits makes you a better individual but what gets you ahead in the workplace.

"So, in my opinion, the Indians who remain connected to their own family-value and relation-based life styles have a much stronger family structure and mental peace than the American families who divorce their spouses within 2-5 years of marriage [or atleast had slept with 10-15 partners before marriage] and will remarry at least 3-5 spouses in their life-time. This develops in the long-run a confused personality because of multiple partnership and emotional scars. This translates to an impatient mentality and intolerance to other people's views and different cultures."

These relate more to what is required to be a better individual as opposed to what is required in the work place. However this "divorce rate and low morals " claim about the western culture is a much bastardised excuse to justify just about anything. It is not endemic to any culture but a result of giving a human being more freedom and more importantly, removing the shackles of this male dominated society. The islamic fundamentalist too use this excuse to justify their practice of slaughtering a woman that commits adultery or even just dating someone before marriage. Arrange marriage as opposed to love too is justified using this. It is similar to the communist justifying their system as being more equitable to the entire populace then giving everyone a right to free speech and a valid vote to determine who runs the country. It is not a question of moving towards a western culture. It is just the fallout of going towards a freer society. Individual freedom will also provide the loopholes for the bad elements to grow. Divorce rates in the eastern society is low because the woman do not have the same financial and mental equality as those in the western countries. What percentage of wives get bashed in our society ? What percentage of women work and earn enough to support her kids by herself. What percentage of women have the self belief that they can manage to raise the kids by themselves. In our society too once we have more women working and being financially independent and more importantly, raised equally as a man, the divorce rate will just shoot up. And that is not because our society has gone western. Simply it is our women too will no longer put up with the crap and the inequality that they have been doing for generations.

Multiple partners before marriage is something I don't want to voice my opinion on. I agree that it does make relationships difficult but it is then a question of reaching a mindset where sex is not the sole criteria when you are looking for the right companion in life. I have seen from experience that in fact Indians have a more dirtier mind when it comes to woman then someone "who has had more previous partners". You will be kidding yourself if you think only a minority of indian couples have extra marital affairs. Relationships being difficult is more of a personality thing then temptations from past partners. Infidelity is something that is pretty prevalent in our society. It is not visible because it is all under wraps and the woman just puts up with it. In fact the wife finds it shameful to report it when it is the husband committing the deed. Our society even tolerates multiple wives !!! How lopsided a reasoning is it that a muslim can have as many wives as he wishes but can freely kill a woman for infidelity !!. I think we are taking a moral high point because all the filth that happens in our society is never brought out. The day we provide the freedom and support for the women to speak out, we will realize that these are not plagues of the western culture but purely of male double standards. Once couples live in nuclear families too in our society where you do not have the entire joint family and neighbours watching your every move, the same conditions of infidelity too will pervade in our society. So it is not a question of culture but more of individual principles and morals.

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I think the discussion was a good opportunity for people who have not worked overseas and seen the western work culture to anticipate what personalities were being looked for when working in the western corporate world. Also it was an opportunity for us to look into our own culture to see whether the personalities that our culture and society were churning out was ideal or not. Nothing is perfect and that applies to a society and even more complex, different situation/environment suits a different personality. Moreover the world is constantly changing so attitudes and personalities that once were suitable will be a handicap in the present environment so we have to adapt.

I am a proud Meitei too and I hold very dearly to my roots. So even though the article seems to target "Indians" I think it was more of addressing the eastern and western personalities shaped by the different cultures.

And I think the mayang business owner and the meiteis working for them will not reflect on the issue being addressed. Because it is the same eastern work culture where you have to call sir to your boss. SO subservience to some extent to your boss and unquestioningly carrying out your boss' orders rewards you as being loyal and dependable. This to some extent still happens in the western corporate culture. But predominantly in the western corporate culture you talk as an equal to your boss. And your outspokeness against something that is justified and your valid questioning of directives coming from the top is rewarded as a sign of strength and leadership. And they are the ones that rise up the corporate ladder and not necessarily the one that sucks up to the boss all the time. The ones with the eastern personality is utilized as a loyal hardworking foot soldier and seldom trusted with the role to lead.

So it is more of what one needs to do if wanting to rise up the corporate ladder in a western corporate workplace. You don't have to do that in academic and less competitive and more multicultural workplaces. And definitely you do not have to do that to live in the western countries