[Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:29 PM]

As I had mentioned long ago, it was one of our SC/ST former Chief Ministers during whose tenure he floated the idea of lobbying to include the Meiteis as SC/ST but we Meiteis were too proud and promptly turned that down. We now need them to mull over again the pride v/s opportunity lost debate but this time it HAS to be an INFORMED DECISION equipped with our exhaustive pros and cons debate information specially given that the issues behind the current incendiary friction between the Meiteis and our minority ethnic groups could be removed by the Meiteis too becoming SC/ST.

My objective is to get the maximum number of people to debate the issue and most important make ALL THE pro and anti reasons and the rebuttals available for them to contemplate and ruminate. The problem of our isolated underdeveloped society is that we do not have enough INFORMED intellectuals and of the few, even less with a determined and persistent activism and self belief to overcome the enormous odds of trying to lead our majority uninformed fractious skeptical insecure public given the frustrating environments of corrupt incompetent officials and most of all the extortion demands. So we cannot leave it to chance, GOD or time.

So it falls on the few of us active informed intellectuals to NOT force the others to think on your lines BUT to make ALL the UNBIASED information available to them and then encourage or GOAD them to contemplate and debate the issues among themselves. In the absence of such unbiased information, it is very easy for some unscrupulous people to exploit the rest of the uninformed gullible public for their own self interest. So the aim of this forum when reaching out to the public is not to push ones beliefs however convinced you are of it BUT to purely get all the unbiased information out to them for the public to make their OWN conclusion. So the end objective is not to convince others and win the debate but to make sure all misinformation are debunked and the COMPLETE information disseminated to as wide an audience as we can. And with knowledge will invariably come the self belief and confidence of the public which in our free democratic system will then automatically sort out our politicians.

ANTI SC/ST for MEITEIS - arguments and obfuscation debunked :

FALLACY #1 (Q4, Q5, Q6, Q19): "If Meiteis take up SC/ST, we will promote mediocre students to get a job and lower our educational industrious ethic."

That logic holds true only when that newly introduced opportunity can be made available to mediocre students. During price hikes following an NH39 blockade, releasing a few tens of rice bags will not bring the cost down but releasing a few thousand bags definitely will. SC/ST opportunities are -
1. VERY VERY FIERCELY competitive and - 2. VERY LIMITED in number. The educational openings that SC/ST will provide are opportunities that the Meiteis in our current state HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO AVAIL IN THE LAST 55 YEARS (except for maybe a negligible 5 people)! So claiming that opening SC/ST seats to premium institutes like AIIMS, IITs and IAS will allow mediocre Meiteis to get into these seats is flawed. If there were 5 seats that the Meiteis can avail in a year into these institutes through SC/ST reservation, they WILL BE THE VERY TOP 5 Meiteis students. Assuming another 15 students get into less competitive institutes through SC/ST in a year, the total new 20 SC/ST opportunities out of a student population of about 50000 students vying for that position WILL NOT MAKE the Meiteis more complacent in competing for those positions.

FALLACY #2 (Q12): It is more of lack of hard work that is the main drawback for the Meiteis and not lack of educational infrastructure. If we worked hard, we can compete at an all India open competition.

Statistics - About 5 people from a million Meiteis population for 55 years got into premium Indian institutes and that too only after they got education outside Manipur ! I rest my case !!

But this long story is to show that claims that it is just lack of hard work that stands between a Meiteis with a Manipuri education and an IIT/IAS/AIIMS seat in the open category is SHEER BOGUS and GROSSLY offending to cast that aspersion on industrious people like him that he did not work hard enough to compete successfully with the rest. It is INVARIABLY students from such poor families that excel academically and so people like us who could afford better education outside Manipur cannot preach to them to overcome the poor Manipuri education with more hard work ! Some have made it (however I still don't know any with a pure Manipuri education ) but even if there are, they ARE EXCEPTIONS - our Einsteins ! I agree such an educational gap that existed during my father's days no longer exist but today relatively the disadvantage is still the same as even a small difference in educational infrastructure makes a big impact when competing for such limited seats in these premium institutions in a billion population country. But I wont be surprised if the remote areas in the hills still, in 2003, have the same lack of qualified teaching staff ! The biggest disadvantage and most critical that remain today is the mental lack of self confidence when you go out off Manipur ! However these days because we have a bigger Meiteis Diaspora population with active association this is mitigated to some extent but it still remains the biggest hurdle as success in all spheres of life is TOTALLY dependant on self confidence and self belief that is ACQUIRED and NOT INHERITED IQ from genes. So this JUST WORK HARDER solution is flogging it a bit too much !

FALLACY (#Q3,Q13, ): Only rich students from non deserving families will avail the SC/ST jobs depriving the poor.

Everybody accepts there are better effective and fairer models of SC/ST reservations but THIS IS AN UNRELATED ISSUE. Moreover the selection process in India (outside Manipur) SC/ST seats CANNOT be influenced or bribed and will ONLY BE PURELY ACADEMIC MERIT BASED. If a Meiteis from a well off family that went to better costly education beat a Meiteis from a poorer family with limited resources PURELY ON ACADEMIC MERIT, I am perfectly OK with that though I agree it is unfair.

FALLACY #4: SC/ST will never be granted to the Meiteis so this is an exercise in futility.

This is challenging the very core foundation of the existence of the Manipur-Diaspora forum. We take up issues here not because they are easy but we feel if our generation like preceding ones too throw our hands up and surrender at the obstacles we might just die away if left to the forces of the law of natural selection ending up as a minority as we see in some of our north east regions like the natives in tripura and assam or in a divided state in flames. You are free to hold that view and we respect that. But YOU ARE VERY WRONG if you think I am the only one in our group dedicated and committed to take up the challenge. MOREOVER WE STRONGLY PROMOTE ENCOURAGEMENT OF OUR MEMBERS.

FALLACY #5 (Q3,Q10): WE are not inferior to the mayangs and SC/ST for the Meiteis is an admission of that.

Taking up SC/ST status is NOT an admission that we are mentally inferior but YES .. an honest admission that we are handicapped and underprivileged in our resources and infrastructure which is MANDATORY for our mental, intellectual and self confidence development. It is just unfortunate that the misleading politically incorrect term "SC/ST" projects that misconstrued notion. Reservation is provided to compensate for depriving them of a better education that the people from other developed areas enjoy so that they can now compete at a leveled playing ground.

FALLACY #6 (Q17): SC/ST reservation is an unfair system for those not in the general category.

I selfishly am only interested in the benefit for the Meiteis as we will ALL be in the SC/ST fold and SPECIALLY when there is a justification in terms of an equal infrastructure handicaps to that of the other SC/ST north east states.

FALLACY #7 (Q1, Q2, Q16): Seat reservation for Manipur domicile is different in nature to the SC/ST reservation.

The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that unfortunately the politically incorrect "SC/ST" term is a big shameful dent to our EGO and pride specially to the mindset of an insecure underdeveloped minority in a discriminating, intolerant, opportunity starved and poor majority Indian population. If you oppose opening our current Manipur domicile ONLY seat reservations to an all India open competition for all Manipur education and job seats to promote more competition and hence engender a more industrious work ethic amongst the Manipuri, ALL THE ARGUMENTS OPPOSING SC/ST for the Meiteis FAIL !

FALLACY #8 (Q18): SC/ST has failed in the last 55 years to uplift the people that have availed it.

SC/ST reservation is not meant to solve that ! Economic and Educational Infrastructure improvement in those areas are the solution. SC/ST reservations is merely an equitable compensation not to disadvantage these underprivileged people in the ABSENCE of that infrastructure improvement to those areas.

FALLACY #9 (Q7, Q14): SC/ST inclusion for the Meiteis only addresses job and educational issues.

The ethnic divide very critical today that threatens to break up the state can be diffused partially by the Meiteis too being SC/ST thus bringing about an equal law in access to all land in the state allowing more mingling of the ethnic groups. Also SC/ST central job postings will lead to a wider distribution of the Meiteis Diaspora in India easing settlement for future Meiteis generations outside Manipur.

FALLACY #10 (Q8, Q9, Q11): Having more Meiteis IAS, AIIMS, IIT candidates is not very important. We still have many engineers, doctors, beaureacrats and politicians but that has not brought about any development.

Having Meiteis from such premium institutes selected purely through academic merit ( as all India selections will be ) and not corrupt and influenced Manipuri selections, will yields more honest and competent people with a higher resolve and dedication to bring about development to the Meiteis and Manipur. Moreover people form such premium institutes are exposed to more competition, smarter people, more information, and more opportunities beside a MUCH better education. We would have then had a much bigger overseas Diaspora if we had managed to send a couple of meities to these institutes every year. And that is a big difference. Most of the development of India we see today is driven and funded by both knowledge and money from overseas resident Indians. And that is the primary objective in our education funding program we tried to start off almost 4 years ago - Select and fund education all the way to an overseas post grad for Manipuri students and they will bring in money and knowledge.

FALLACY #11 (Q15): If a student gets in through a lowered standard, he/she will pass out incompetent. So we should not allow Meiteis to take up the lowered bar that SC/ST reservations provide.

If totally incompetent the student will not pass out of the institute. And most people change with opportunity. And moreover for the opportunity starved Meiteis, we should grab every opportunity that comes our way. These SC/ST reservations are set at a safe minimum competency level and we are not demanding a further lowering of that for the Meiteis like what is being demanded in Manipur for the MBBS SC/ST seats. These all India SC/ST seats are very competitive too and in all likelihood, the brightest Meiteis with the limitation of a pure Manipuri education may still fail to make the SC/ST selection.

Don't take this as a cocky argument but my format here and the previous 19 questions format are just BULLET PROOFING to prevent further dodging of the rebuttals so we don't go around in circles but to guide the debate forward with newer or unaddressed points.

[ Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:07 PM ]

And by all means expand your answers BUT GIVE A DEFINITE ANSWER FIRST from the SIMPLE choices that I have provided so that the crucial questions are not dodged or ignored again which seem to be happening otherwise, but debated with INTEGRITY and HONESTY. Feel free to shoot me your own similar question and I will answer them as straight forward as I always have. But PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION below. I am not trying to embarrass you all but I seriously want to see if you have a different answer to mine given your such strong conviction in an opposing logic to mine.

1. Should we put an end to the current state selection for engineering and medical students and force all Meiteis to compete for engineering seats in the open Indian entrance exams for each institute including removing reserved Manipuri seats in RIMS ?
- (Yes/No)

2. Should we open up all state department appointments including teachers to an all India open selection ?
- (Yes/No)

3. Did you do your entire schooling and college in Manipur and did you avail yourself to any Manipur quota or otherwise meant for the underprivileged ?
- (Yes/No)

4. Have a rough guess how many SC/ST seats in jobs and education do you think are available in India in a year ?
(0-1 million)

5. Of that, have a rough guess how many seats in jobs and education will the Meiteis get ?
(0-10000)

6. Will the above number of seats that the amenities will get change the competitiveness of the 500000 Meiteis education and job seeking population ?
-(Yes/No)

7. Do you think that Meiteis getting through more central govt jobs and posting outside Manipur lead to a wider Meiteis Diaspora helping students and others settle in easier in the other Indian cities ?
(better/trouble)

8. Will having more IAS (specially) and IIT and AIIMS meitei graduates (given that we have literally less than 5) through SC/ST category lead to them contributing more to the development of the state given their much more influential positions than other Meiteis we have produced ?
(positive/negative)

9. Will increasing IAS/IFS Meiteis from the current about 5 total count to say 2 each more every year through SC/ST make a difference to the plight, knowledge , infrastructure and also psychological of the Meiteis?
(Yes/No)

10. Have we had or Do you think a Meiteis with a total Manipuri education can get through IAS, IIT or AIIMS ?
(Yes/No)

11. Did Mosses Chilai (DC of Ukhrul or Chandel) and Anthony get through IAS through SC/sT quota or through general ?
(SC-ST/General)

12. a) "Manipuris lack hard work and determination and we are always look out for easier pathways."
b)"Meiteis are the most hard-working and competitive community in the NE. You have so many achievers in so many spheres - Kunjarani, Dingko, football players, artists, university toppers, software engineers, journalists etc..." . Which of the two is correct or are you just conveniently opting either side which ever suits your current argument ?
(A/B)

13. Will more meities getting into influential offices purely through merit based open Indian jobs like IAS albeit through a lower level SC/ST selection as opposed to the state appointed corrupt selection process office holders lead to a better, honest, effective administration for the state ?
(Yes/No)

14. Do you think Meiteis too becoming SC/ST will nullify or reduce the case for breakup of hill areas of Manipur ?
(nullify/reduce/no effect)

15. Do you think a student that gets selection through lower marks of SC/ST reservation will be a threat in terms of quality if the student eventually passes out of the institute since there is no SC/ST lowered pass out marks ?
(Yes/No)

16. Do you think Manipur reservation is any different to SC/ST reservation ?
(Yes/No)

17. Will you refuse SC/ST for the Meiteis hypothetically assuming that it has already been proven as providing useful opportunities on the grounds that SC/ST reservation was disadvantageous for the other general category Indians ?
(Yes/No)

18. Do you think reservation has been promoted as the solution to improve the underprivileged people or a temporary fill gap assistance to level the competition in the "absence/failure/continuing attempt" to improve the educational and economic infrastructure of the region.?
("reservation as the Solution"/"infrastructure upgrade as the solution")

19. Will the SC/ST reservation selection pick the best Meiteis students or will it pick the mediocre ?
(Best/Mediocre)

I got my engineering seat through the Manipur quota and would never have made it through the open India competition and will any engineer in our group that made it through any open India BTech selection speak up. How many seats in RIMS are reserved for Manipur domiciles ? How many of the doctors that we have today in our group would have made the cut if RIMS was a totally open India selection ? Now the tally from that count would give us a true indication of how many professionals we would have had in a pure non reservation scenario that all of you seems to be promoting as the best direction for the Meiteis !! I don't know about you but I am really glad the lowered Manipur reservation for engg seats was available for me even though I had a better school education outside Manipur. And I can guarantee you that at this stage of my life I feel I am not only far more successful but have a lot more self confidence and intellect than a lot of the guys that made the open Indian selection.

George Bush was far from being a topper and his admission to the prestigious Yale univ was purely from his father's influence and connection as he would NEVER have made the academic cut ! He didn't become a president from his academic credentials either. So is it with almost all persons born into influential families who succeed NOT because of genes but predominantly FROM knowledge and self confidence borne from experiences gained from the opportunities earned initially purely by birth and not merit. I KNOW where I would have been if there were no Manipur seat reservation for engineering which I robbed from a Manipuri domicile student because my parents were wealthy enough to send me to a good boarding school education very early ! And that education has made me adapt to a western world much quicker aiding my career not through academics but purely from self confidence. And my knowledge now has nothing to do with the academic credential of my days during school/college but from the self confidence that I have acquired now. But I have addressed this earlier and I hate to repeat myself.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Manipur-Diaspora/message/414

But I am going to this great lengths to debunk your theory that if a less academic person gets in through a lowered selection process, it is catastrophic ! The knowledge and experience gained from that opportunity almost invariably transforms the person and moreover one does not have to be an Einstein to adequately do justice to that opportunity which the Indian competition of a billion population demands ! And it is VERY WRONG to judge a person by one's academic credentials or even diligence at SOLELY the early time of one's life during the entrance exam selection that should SEAL the fate of a person ! It is actually what the person does in the next 20 years after college that better determines his life's output which i agree is partially determined by his former academic credentials but not completely. I was no topper but an average student and attribute my Manipur engg entrance exam selection to a stronger English than my science and math subjects ! But looking back at my life, it is the lucky opportunities (read reservations) that I got from my being born in a wealthier family that I attribute almost 95% of my status today ! So what we should be striving for is NOT necessarily SOLELY more diligence but MORE opportunities which will invariable breed the diligence required. Statistics will show that there is more than academic credentials that make a person succeed and excel in life ! So I do not buy the less opportunity for more quality argument. That is applicable only when that available opportunity reaches a CRITICAL NUMBER and the current opportunities that we have given our limited educational infrastructure has not reached that CRITICAL NUMBER in fact is probably a big ZERO when it comes to admission to the premium institutes. So if allow 10 more each of doctors and engineers and IAS to our population of 2 million, we are not going to see a drop in the quality of our students. When we open up 10 SC/ST seats each to the Meiteis for IAS, IIT and AIIMS, it is not the second class students who get those opportunities but the VERY TOP 30 Meiteis students who will get it ! Don't let it fool you thinking the SC/ST quota is a cake walk that will suddenly make all Meiteis lethargic that they will all get selected without much studies at all. SC/ST selection is still DAMN hard and the seats available are miniscule compared to the Meiteis unemployed and student population. SC/ST if the Meiteis take up will at most offer 50 seats a year for the Meiteis and to claim that these seats are going to change the attitude of 1 million Meiteis is a little far fetched !

>> Our mass obsession with IAS/IPS or govt. jobs is unprofitable and out of place in the current job scenario. It is a blunder to measure our socio-economic progress in terms of the number of IAS/IPS officers >>

---- Misunderstood again ! That count was not a measure of our socio economic progress but the essential count of intellectuals, knowledgeable and influential people that will improve the essential physical, leadership and intellectual infrastructure of the state to guide, mentor and turn it around. If we lack that infrastructure improving leaders, we need reservation to be able to compete with the others from other developed cities.

>> Now he has developed whole village in his father's name at Mao with many facilities. How many of our Meiteis DCs or civil servants have done for his/her locality like him? >>

--- The current administrative and political people in Manipur are all appointed locally not through merit but purely from connections and bribes leading to incompetent office holders. If we had similar influential IAS Meiteis from the SC/ST reservation making through merit, they too will be conscientiously trying to develop the state.

>> (a) Reservation, as a policy, has failed miserably to achieve its objectives. There are certain inherent flaws in it. After 55 years, the writing on the wall is very clear-it is a system, which has ended up in not only perpetuating but also increasing inequalities within a group. >>

- I have previously explained that you are wrongly blaming reservation instead of the required policies to improve the infrastructure for the 55 years failure !! Reservation was not meant to solve this. Reservation is required because the policies required to uplift the people by improving infrastructure have failed to be put in place for those 55 years which in turn mandates reservation to provide a level competition. This seems to be the most misconstrued logic - that reservation is the solution that failed even after 55 years ! What has failed is in our investing in policies for more teacher training and adequate infrastructure in the schools and colleges.

>>The panacea to the ills in our society lies not in reservation but in good governance and rooting out corruption>>

--- Couldn't agree with you more. But we have waited for that essential "good governance and rooting out corruption" infrastructure upgrade for 55 years ! And that is what has failed so we have to take the help of the SC/ST reservation if we, as the weaker genes, are not to become extinct in the next 55 years !

>>It is a myth that reservation can deliver quality education to the masses. There can be no substitute for good governance and a congenial environment for learning. >>

--- Couldn't agree with you more but who has been claiming that ? !! Reservation is to make up for the "ABSENCE" of quality education in the underprivileged areas so the VERY BEST students from these areas are rescued by admitting them to better institutes in the developed areas.

>> Much has been read into the high literacy rate of Mizoram. The dropout rate in Mizoram in the class I-X segment is 74%. That means 74% of the students do not complete Class X. The CMIE infrastructure index for Mizoram is 65 while that of Manipur is 81, second only to Assam (93) in the Northeast.>>

---- How much drop out for Manipur ? We can always doctor out selective statistics to suit our argument. But the overall statistics is that they have a higher literacy rate than us. But even if you are not convinced and you are going to pull out selective detailed statistic to prove otherwise , the important thing to note is not just that they are ahead in literacy but that we the Meiteis were FAR MORE educated 55 years ago ! Even if they have not caught up with us yet, they have narrowed the huge lead we had. How come 55 years of SC/ST did not have a retrogressive influence on them that you are predicting for the Meiteis if we went SC/ST ? If you want a clearer picture do not compare with the SC/ST North East states but to the next SC/ST ethnic group and see in their area what are the educational and economic infrastructure. Then compare that with Manipur's ?

>>However, one must give credit to the social progress that Mizoram has made in the last 15 years. That is primarily because of one thing - absence of law and order problems. Additionally, in the last decade, there has been a rigorous training of teachers going on in the state >>

--- How does this logic prove Meiteis should not go SC/ST ??? On the contrary if despite their more conducive climate and better policies they are still availing the SC/ST opportunities aren't we going to be left behind if we despite our handicaps are still refusing the SC/ST opportunities for our own people !!

>> That is why, I find the OBC system an effective one because it has an in-built targeting system in the form of "Creamy Layer". The mass social revolution of the OBCs in the last decade in India has been made possible solely due to percolation of the benefits to the lowest strata>>

---- I don't care what is best and fair for India and the rest of the general category. I am just selfishly looking at the best option for the Meiteis.

>> If Manipur never represented a Prime Minister to India, should we demand a reserved rotation of Prime Ministership? >>

--- DEFINITELY !! That is the model in the UN, Commonwealth, EU and other egalitarian organizations (which is the SC/ST reservation equivalent) and not one where one big majority bully/smothers out the voice of the weak . Otherwise the small minorities/countries will always be swamped out by the majority. And that is why also our minority ethnic groups are demanding delimitation now !

I hope you will answer the questionnaire ....

[Wed Jul 9, 2003 8:28 PM]

........................... BUT I AM VERY SURPRISED THAT WE ARE MISSING THE MOST IMPORTANT STRATEGIC ANGLE IN THIS DEBATE ! Meiteis being SC/ST is the best strategic move to end this demand by our minority ethnic groups to break up Manipur ! Protesting and "MARTYRS" aren't the SMARTEST way to counter the breakup demands ! I raised this issue in my first June 2000 post itself and in my July 2000 post I anticipated the June 2001 NSCN demands for breaking up Manipur and warned prophetically that if we did not address this issue now -

..... I would hate to look back in the future and say to myself "I KNEW ALL ALONG THIS WOULD HAPPEN". .... But no one since has addressed it at all ! Now we have the delimitation debate ! Well ... We just have to fight it again with some more "BRAWNS and MARTYRS" ..... I JUST HOPE THEY ARE NOT YOUR CLOSE ONES !

Our being collectively SC/ST with the rest of our ethnic groups and our accepting each other's different cultures will encourage more mingling of the ethnic groups. We cant be having this "mangba sengba" business but it is easier said then done with our orthodox Hindu older generation. Hopefully our younger generation of beef and even dog eating Meiteis will hopefully bring about an end to the mangba sengba distinction/discrimination. The Meiteis are otherwise going to be effectively projected by the NSCSN in their campaign for their greater nagaland as an ethnic group sharing the mind set of the Hindu upper castes discriminating and depriving the non Hindu ethnic minorities of our hills as lower castes.

The biggest stumbling block is the term Schedule Caste/Scheduled Tribe. If it had been called a more politically correct term like "affirmative action for underprivileged minorities" no one would be fighting the reservation and would see it just as justifiable as the Manipur jobs reserved ONLY for Manipur domiciles and not opened to the all India applicants.

[ Tue Jul 8, 2003 5:30 AM ]

>> Please enlighten us on how can reservation help in overcoming this problem of lack of educational infrastructure... which has remained untouched in the last 50 years.Probably, the whole of NE India can benefit from your insights. >>

--- You are missing the point altogether. Reservation is not a tool to improve the educational infrastructure but a compensation that NEEDS to be in place as long as the educational infrastructure is not at par with the rest of the country. So as long as the educational infrastructure is not improved reservation WILL BE MANDATED to keep people in these underprivileged regions to be able to compete with the rest of the country. So to repeat myself - you should be asking why we have failed to improve the educational infrastructure improvement in 50 years that reservation is still necessary now because of the unchanged inequality. And the answer is the basic reason why reservation is required to protect the weak. Human beings are greedy self centered people and development money in a country will continue to be siphoned off by the strong if we left it to market forces. That is why the poor voiceless northeast will continue receiving less money and opportunities than other developed powerful states and that is why the Indian govt has stepped in with tax holiday schemes to direct economic development to these underdeveloped area which is a reservation quota equivalent. It is ridiculous to tell these underdeveloped states that you are equal to the rest of the states and so no special incentive need to be provided for you to compete for industries with the rest of the developed states. With that attitude the place will remain unchanged for 50 years ! By the same reason, we have almost all the money in Manipur siphoned off in the valley not reaching the remote villages in the hills and the reservation quota is a policy to ensure that this inequality is somehow leveled out.

>> Anyway,if all of us get the benefit of reservation, where do we go? > To "Indian" cities to get "Indian" education? >>

--- You are still bringing in unrelated issues ! We go to Indian cities for education not because we all belong to the reservation quota !! .... but BECAUSE THE EDUCATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN THESE REGIONS HAVE FAILED TO IMPROVE IN 50 YEARS and the students and parents realize that it is suicidal to compete with the rest of the students from other developed Indian cities with a Manipuri education ! And what happens to the students from poorer families who cannot afford the costly education outside Manipur ? RESERVATION IS NOT THE POLICY TO END RESERVATION. EDUCATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADE IS. And as long as that infrastructure is not improved, reservation will remain a necessity to make it fair for people in these underprivileged areas.

>> stand not just from an ideological point but purely for their ego and pride and shame to be called an SC/ST, you are guilty of a big CRIME against the many students who could have made the SC/ST benchmark for the last 50 years ! >>

-- This is hilarious, to say the least!!

If you genuinely believe that reservation is counter productive and will make the people more laid back and argue against reservation on that ideology then it is OK. But for those that oppose it simply because he/she is embarrassed of the derogatory SC/ST tag, then IT DEFINITELY IS A CRIME OF A GROSS NATURE because to me depriving educational and career opportunities to an entire populace is far worse than killing a person the same way as executives siphoning off millions by stock manipulation is committing a far bigger crime than a bank robber that robs a few thousands with a gun.

>> we need to have more doctors getting trained who will go and serve their people in the remote villages where the Meiteis are reluctant to go to . >>

-- There again you are mixing up issues....If Meiteis are reluctant to go, will they jump at going to the hills if they become STs?

EXACTLY ... DEFINITELY NOT ! That is why we have to allow students from these remote areas to avail education through an even lower bar even if they do not get through a previously lowered bar. But if they take that option, they should be mandated to go and serve in those areas for some years. It is ONLY on that condition/policy that I support the further lowering of the bar and not if these doctors are going to settle and work in the valley area. Moreover the entrance exam selection does not make them a doctor. If they pass the medical exams after the 5 years eventually then they are perfectly competent as any other doctor. And if they are incompetent they will never pass out and be a doctor. Of course a few seats get wasted in the process.

>> If all determinants were same or similar, as you have been tirelessly arguing, then why does this enormous gap in performance exist? >>

I am still investigating that as the data we have currently does not prove anything and in such a position I prefer to err on the side that gives us more opportunity.

>> Well, at least I have a choice not to be examined by people who could not get even 40% . If they are mandated to go back and serve those remote areas then having a doctor with any credentials is better than having none ! Moreover do not think 40% is too low as it has to be seen relative to the low Manipur marking system. "consumer is king" >>

--That is the capitalistic slogan where market forces play itself out to get the most efficient system very akin to the law of natural selection where the weak genes die off while strong genes dominate and are passed on for the best survival of the species. There is no question that unshackled open competition leads to the best efficient system but in A CIVILIZED SOCIETY there is a humanity element that we cannot ignore where we cannot let all the weak die off and the strongest prevailing. HUMANS ARE NOT WILD ANIMALS ANYMORE. And that is why in all developed nations, a little bit of socialism is enforced in their otherwise predominantly capitalistic model to encourage fierce competition. RESERVATION is that element of a caring civilized society where we recognize that the strong cannot selfishly dominate and allow the weak to die away but be propped up and helped while the strong is FORCED (much against their selfish wishes) to pump resources to improve the infrastructure of the weak areas till they can compete on an equal footing and only then will reservation no longer be needed.

And I see that infrastructure improvement happening more in the other northeast SC/ST states than Manipur. There is no question that we WERE the most developed state in the north east 50 years ago so we had a big head start. However I think the others are fast catching up on us and mizoram even has a higher literacy rate than us ! And for prudent future policies we do not sit on our laurels and let time (god for those religious) play itself out. We have to preempt any deterioration by charting the best course and grabbing all opportunities that come our way specially given that we do not belong to the strong group but the weak destined to die away if left to the law of natural selection !

[Mon Jul 7, 2003 5:21 PM]

- "Why has the reservation system after 50 years failed to deliver?"

The same reason why the Meiteis after 50 years too has failed to deliver - lack of competent educational Infrastructure ! The infrastructure has remained almost untouched in the 50 years ! thus making reservation still VITALLY important to ensure that education and knowledge are made available to the people of these underprivileged ethnic groups. So it is not reservation that has failed but our strategies and policies to ensure infrastructure is pumped in so that reservation is no longer required. When I volunteered to teach in Manipur the school had no science equipment AT ALL ! I had to improvise and got my students to remove their ties and used that to demonstrate the time period study of pendulums !

All you SC/ST opposing people are saying that the students who come out of this educational system can compete with the 1 billion other people of the country to get the few 1000 odd seats in the top premium Indian institutes ! And we shouldn't even be questioning fair play of whether we are stealing the seats from other more underprivileged people but selfishly adopting procedures that is in the best SELFISH interest of our people. In the Indian level competition no sane person can say that it is FAIR for the Meiteis to be competing with the rest of the Indians in the general category.

Some can and we take our hats off to them and by all means you compete in the general category but don't deprive the opportunity to the less competent by refusing to allow a lower benchmark for them that the rest of the people from the underprivileged groups are availing. And for those that are taking a stand not just from an ideological point but purely for their ego and pride and shame to be called an SC/ST, you are guilty of a big CRIME against the many students who could have made the SC/ST benchmark for the last 50 years !

But WITHIN MANIPUR I still recommend that quota should be made available to our minority ethnic groups for Manipur seats not because they are a minority but they are genuinely underprivileged.I even support the lowering of the MBBS marks to some extent because we need to have more doctors getting trained who will go and serve their people in the remote villages where the Meiteis are reluctant to go to . However there should be a provision to ensure that students who get in through the quota are mandated to do a minimum few years in their remote communities.